MUSINGS ON TEN MILLIMETER January 30, 2012
I first became interested in the 10mm pistol cartridge when it didn’t exist. All of my ballistics calculations told me that that was “where the lines crossed” in terms of optimal ballistic performance with current metallurgy and propellants. I even “invented” the 10mm with a friend, making up dummies from .30 Remington cases and cast .38/40 bullets. When the factory cartridge came out, it was identical to mine, but 1/16″ shorter.
Naturally, I signed up to be the first kid on the block to have a Bren Ten — two of ‘em, in fact — but had to wait five years for magazines from the outfit someone actually called “Doorknob and Dickhead” in gun magazine print. I eventually sold my pair to the National Firearms Museum.
On the recommendation of a fellow gunwriter, the boss at European American Armory gave me a Witness in 10mm to use in _Forge of the Elders_. At the time, it had to be issued with ten-round magazines, which annoyed me to bits. From Brownell’s, I ordered a .45 ACP slide and barrel, and five magazines (whose natural capacity was ten rounds) and can switch back and forth in a minute. Once the ban was off, I bought 15-round 10mm magazines, plus a talented friend welded up the old ones so they went to full capacity, too.
Meanwhile, another friend of mine was having money trouble and offered to sell me a second generation Glock M20 at a very decent price. The original magazines won’t always drop free, but the new magazines will, and how likely am I to be concerned with that, given that this piece, too, is a 15+1 affair?
I’ve only had a few hundred rounds through each gun, but the idea I’ve heard expressed, that either one would be damaged or worn out by the cartridge, as intense as it is, doesn’t seem likely. I have seen what it does to mangle the Colt Delta Elite (very sad), so I know what to look for. The Witness is pretty heavy, while the Glock has that ability to flex which seems to nullify recoil to some extent. Neither is any worse to shoot, recoil-wise, than a 1911 in .45 ACP.
Disclaimer: I adore .44 Magnum (considering it “adequate”) and long to add “just one more” — the fully-underlugged 5″ M629 “Classic” — to my collection, so I may be more recoil-tolerant than some others.
I’m frequently asked about the fact that I regard 10mm as significantly more powerful than .45 ACP. My assessment of 10mm (indeed the power of any handgun cartridge) is made by multiplying the energy of the cartridge in foot/pounds times the cross-sectional area of the bullet in square inches. I’ve explained my reasoning elewhere, several times. .45 ACP (milspec) is a 59. Ten millimeter (Winchester Silvertip) is an 81. The “twice as powerful” I’m often asked about is from their energy, 369 ft./lbs. and 647 ft./lbs. respectively.
I guess I should add that I have S&W M610 revolvers in 10mm, both 5″ and 6 1/2″. I have used them extensively in competition (so has my wife Cathy) and can tell you that they are magic wands, bringing more accuracy and power to long-range handgun shooting than any other repeating handgun I know of.
I like all of my 10mms very much, although I wouldn’t mind adding an AMT Javelina longslide to my collection, as well as the 10mm conversion kit for my Grizzly. I also wish to hell that someone would build something like the M1 Carbine in 10mm.
So many guns, so little money …
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So many guns, so little money… the story of my life.
I remember when people were wild catting 10mm and .40 caliber rounds. Remember .40 G & A?
I got the wants real bad for the EAA Witness Polymer P Carry 10mm pistol. Which you can see by
1) going to http://www.eaacorp.com/
2) clicking”Firearms”
3) clicking Hand Guns”
4) Clicking “Witness Polymer”
5) clicking “Carry”
6) download that .pdf file or try to make it big enough to see.
I tried to make it give me a URL, but EAA’s website has always used some gawd-awful technology like Flash or something that makes it abnormal, soggy, and hard to light.
I’ve never shot a 10mm. but if ElNeil pushes it, and someone makes a rugged reliable 1911 in 10mm, I’ll give it a go! I wanted a Delta Elite, but it got pisspoor longevity reviews from the start.
Howdy folks. Oh yes, fond memories of the various 10mm. I especially was taken with 10mm Wimp. Probably the best pocket pistol cartridge (IMNSHO). I got a Glock in 10 Wimp just the right size to slide into my front pocket. Smith and I had a mutual friend named Charlie who had a 9mm magnum. Charlie was fairly well upholstered and when he shot that 9 mm, I could see the recoil impulse go up both arms and meet right over his spine between the shoulder blades. Good lord, I never figured out how the man didn’t lose both arms.
Unlike Neil, I am quite recoil sensitive. I shot Cathy’s little 45-70 lever rifle just 1 shot, put it down, walked slowly away and screamed for 5 minutes. She’ll just stand and plink away with it. One of the most terrifying things I’ve ever seen. I never want that woman seriously mad at me! In the revolver, I found the 44 special in a Taurus 5 shot 4″ to be most pleasant to shoot and was comparable to the 45 ACP.
Anyway, most pleasant memories of riling Smith up to appolectic (sic) levels on Saturday afternoons telling him his love for the 10 mm was misplaced. I sure do miss those Saturdays.
CAthy sensibly scares ANYONE who gets that lady pissed. 98 pounds of hell on wheels if she ever gets riled. THAT’S why I hug her before saying “Hi!” to Neil. I’m no fool!
Oh yeah, Olympic Arms makes a 10mm carbine called the K10. It’s an AR-15 type design and MSRP is around $1,000. Ouch.
[link]
I’d really like a Kel-Tec “Sub Rifle 2000″ which is made in 9mm and .40 (I believe with option of taking various pistol’s magazines for your shooting convenience). Looks like something made in a bicycle shop, MSRP runs around $400.
The problem with 10mm in a 1911 is controlling slide velocity. Add too much in the way of recoil springs and the gun will short-cycle on you. Too little, and the gun will batter.
The one reliable way is to increase the mass (and therefore the inertia) of the slide. AMT did this by using a seven inch barrel and the slide to go with it. Never shot a Javelina, but the theory is sound. Its .45 ACP sibling works very well, although it can seem like a long time between shots.
The L.A.R. approach is good, too. The slide of a Grizzly (which you don’t change to switch calibers) is as massive by itself as many medium-frame pistols.
On my “:Efficacy Scale”, 10mm is way ahead of .45 ACP, .40 S&W, or .357 Magnum, but a bit behind full-out .41 Magnum. Interestingly, though, the 10mm Silvertips I prefer are ballistic twins to the Silvertip load for .41 Magnum.
Here’s my problem. I have only found ONE semi-auto that truly fits my hand. The 1911. Well, except for the Colt Woodsman. a 1911 is just…… the perfect fit. and with my size, fairly concealable, even in a full size. And since my stroke, it is the only weapon I have trained with. If the recoil is that heavy in a 10mm 1911, I’ll have to pass. to be honest, 12-14 rounds of federal Hydra-Shoks will do the trick. and, with the addition of a Colt .22lr top end, my 1911 recoils like a .45, and eats like a .22. So I can practice LOTS! The BEST physical therapy I know of, other than blacksmithing.
Inspired by this article and the comments to it I just excavated my S&W Model 610 out of the safe. It has been a couple of years since I fired it, and that’s now going to change.
My 610 is the Model 610-2, with the very handy 3-inch barrel and round-butt grips.
It’s a bit of a handful with the heavier, as in 200-grain projectile, 10MM loads, but not impossible. If I want milder loads it works just great with .40 Short & Wimpy on moon clips.
What I would like to see would be a Model 610 variation that bore the same relationship that the S&W Model 58 does to the Model 57, that is a round top with fixed sights. With my 3-inch especially the adjustable sights are rather pointless. A fixed-sight version would be more handy and slightly less expensive.
Another wish, unlikely to happen in this universe, would be a 10MM with a rim. It would bear the same relationship to the normal 10MM that the .45 Auto Rim does to the .45ACP. I say this because while I do not object to moon clips, I wish there were an alternative, call it a “10MM Auto Rim.”
Historically, it now looks as if the 10MM has taken a place in the market parallel to that of the .41 Magnum. It’s not going to go away, and a loyal following keeps it alive.
Charles
I’ve wondered about a 10mm AR - it happens that the .225 Winchester (basically, a 30-30 necked down) has just the right diameter to make a rimmed .40/10mm. (and the 30 Rem LNS used to wildcat his 10mm is basically a rimless 30-30).
Another option might be to just get a 41 magnum and paper-patch 10mm bullets to fit. but that’s just goofy.
Cheers,
Frank - I’ve long been of the opinion that the 10MM would be a superb choice as a carbine caliber. But itntead of a scaled AR platform, I’d see as viable something more along the line the delayed-blowback of Heckler and Koch. Whatever the choice, I’d want the three Rs, Rugged - Reliable - Robust.
While I’d have to check in one of my reference works, I’m pretty certain that the .225 Winchester is not a necked-down .30/30. If memory serves the rim of the semi-rimmed .225 case is the same diameter as that of the .30/06 family of cartridges. This was done deliberately so as to allow the use of rifle bolt faces made for the .30/06 family rounds. (.243, .308. .270 etc)
The long-extinct .22 Zipper was however a modified .30/30 case.
Still, we tend to think along the same sort of lines. I had long ago searched the dimensional data bases in the hope that something could just be trimmed to produce a 10MM Auto Rim. Part of the problem is that the rim would also have to be thick. That would be to takeup the space of both the extraction flange on the original 10MM round, and the thickness of the moon clips. Look at a round of .45 Auto Rim and you’ll see what I mean. The rim is exceedingly thick.
If I had the $ to commission Starline for a batch of unique cases, this would be my choice.
I’ve never taken the 10mm plunge myself. Other than hunting applications, where you might benefit from a little more sectional density (and in an auto pistol round that may be splitting hairs), I always viewed the Ten’s advantage over the .45 as more theoretical than functional. Indeed, if what you want is to run a 180-grain pill at 1,200fps (the rough ballpark of factory ammo), well, there are a couple of premium .45ACP+P loads that will do just that. And the Ten’s trajectory advantage seems to kick in beyond the range that most of us are going to hit reliably with an auto pistol anyway.
Even Jeff Cooper once said, regarding the Ten being conceived to increase range and power over the .45, “I fear we did not ask ourselves, ‘Why should we do that?’ We just did it.” I won’t begrudge anyone the choice of a Ten, even (especially!) on a purely “because I can” basis, but I’m after simplicity and standardization in my own battery, and if I’m going to set out to better the .45, it’s going to be a serious step up. (At the moment, my such gun is the .45 Colt, using Buffalo Bore’s 325gr LBT-designed cast bullet at 1,300fps. I’m aware that the five-shot .45 Colts can do better than this, but even this load would have made Elmer smile.
I’m a 1911 fanatic. it’s that simple. Ergonomically. it’s perfect for my hands. Caliber, with the options available these days, makes it top notch. Revolvers are wonderful, but I just cannot master a speedloader these days- too many fine motor skills deteriorated since the stroke. Revolvers for plinking and slow fire, my .45 for defense. And my two most favorite plinkers are a colt 1911 with a .22lr top end, and a Colt Woodsman. Followed closely by a S&W .22-32 Kit gun and the Taurus 9 shot clone(ish) with the full underlug.
I love a semi-auto rifle/pistol combo, and will find a marlin .45acp Camp Carbine someday.
The first Glock I bought was a G20, because it was “the most powerful cartridge” according to my lawyer, the FFL - hotter than the .45 ACP. I was pleasantly surprised at the recoil, and all my kids learned to shoot pistol with that gun - even my petite oldest daughter.
When I bought a G19 later on, Katy tried it - and had cycling problems because she limp wristed it. With the G20, there was no problem with it cycling in her hands.
Ammo is getting harder to find, especially on my budget.
Greetings Students.
As someone previously mentioned 41 Magnum, here is a short, but true story for you. Many years ago I had an early S&W 657 with the 9 3/8″ barrel. I went to a near by indoor range to shoot my newly developed boogie man ammunition. 170 gn sierra h/p over as I recall 20-21 gns of hercules 2400. According to the book I used, that was within allowable limits and previous field testing did not evidence any signs of over pressure.
At the range, in doors and dimly lit at night, I proceeded to set up my lane and fired a couple of rounds down range with slow single action. The muzzle flash lit up the whole firing line, the report shook dust down from the ceiling, the wake of the bullets raised trails of dust all the way to the target and all other action on the range stopped. I stopped shooting the ammunition as I didn’t want to be responsible to having to replace the back stop or anyone’s concussive injury. I also shot that gun with that same load as lead bullets were not allowed in a falling plate competition. I pulled out as the hollow points were causing the 3/8 ” armor steel plates to take a modest cone shape and had to be dug out of the dirt back stop. Again, this load was by the book and the brass never showed any signs of overload.
Hi Old Geezer!
I was the one that made note of the .41 Magnum. I’ve owned at least one .41 Magnum since I purchased my New Model Ruger Blackhawk 4.625″ back in ‘76.
I recall putting pretty substantial dents in a steel place with loads that featured the long-extinct Hornady 210-grain Flat-nose FMJ. The steel was plain Carbon 10-10, and so pretty soft, and either quarter inch thick, or five sixteenths. With those loads and some .30 Carbine rounds out of a T/C Contender,the plate looked like a map of the moon by the end of the day, though no rounds penetrated it.
I’m pretty certain all powders with a substantial nitroglycerine content tend to flash brightly. Winchester 296 and Hodgdon H-110 are even brighter than 2400.
Also own Redhawk and Bisley .41 Magnums, as well as a Marlin Model 1894 rifle.
I own S&W M610 10mm revolvers, a 5″ and a 6.5″. As a longtime fan of .45 Auto Rim ( a friend of mine counterbored the spare .45 ACP cylinder of my “Superized” Blackhawk .45 Convertible so the rims would fit) , I had a machinist make me a die that would bend the rims of cut-off .30-30 cases forward until they filled the headspace normally taken up by the false rim and moon clip at the back of the cylinder.
Before I could take the next step — reaming these cases out so they would accept 10mm bullets properly, the Flood of ‘97 destroyed my shop, and my Unimat mini-lathe with it. I haven’t reloaded since.
Another approach might be to make up little brass washers and press them onto the front of the .30-30 rim with a sizing or seating die. That’s probably the way the late George Nonte would have done it.
The nice thing about the 10mm revolver (e.g. SW 610) is you can use the moon clips instead of speed loaders. You also can also use .40 SW as an adequate combat round, or a practice round.
I own four handguns that are designed to be operated with moon clips, a S&W Model 610 3″ as already noted, a Ruger SP 101 9MM 3″, a S&W Model 25-2 6″, and a S&W 625 4″.
I like moon clips and use them as noted by DonM as speed-loaders.
But in the cases of the 25-2 and 625, I also like the Auto Rim round. I have two primary reasons.
One is that I have found that both the 25-2 and 625 shoot more accurately with the .45 Auto Rim round. I suspect that this might be because the big, thick, rim allows for more positive ignition, since firing pin impacts would be more evenly received.
The other reason is that removing fired cases from moon clips is a frustrating sore fingers chore. In fact I tend to perform said chore at home. I just take to the range a sufficient quantity of clipped rounds for the session.
Even the aftermarket tools for removing fired cases from moon clips areof limited utility.
One sneaky way of delaying slide unlock and reducing slide velocity in the 1911 platform is to use a square bottom firing pin stop than the gently rounded variety that is the norm. It touches the hammer lower, reducing the mechanical advantage the round-bottomed type has in cocking the hammer. By this method one can (supposedly) use full-house 10mm ammo in a 1911 with the standard weight slide and an 18.5 pound recoil spring.
Colt’s 1980s “Delta Elite” 10mm 1911s used instead a clever dual recoil spring setup, which might have worked better if they’d spent the extra four cents to make the recoil spring guide out of steel instead of plastic, but then again, Deltas became known for cracking the frame at the slide stop cut. Current production Deltas have that portion of the frame cut out entirely and, I am told, do not crack the frame; I wonder whether 25 years of advances in metallurgy have contributed to the improvement as well.
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